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Michael Beschloss takes a deep

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dive into some of the

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most notable moments in past

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vice presidential debates and how

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Premium on Apple Podcasts. The

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vice presidential candidates debate wraps

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up at CBS

1:00

News headquarters in New York

1:02

City. You see the candidates

1:05

there being joined by their wives, Usha

1:07

Vance and Gwen Walls. A

1:09

cordial debate between these two men.

1:12

I wouldn't describe them as evenly matched

1:14

because they are so different. So

1:17

different in style and so different on

1:19

substance. Very interested to

1:22

hear from the spin room to hear from all of my colleagues

1:24

here to get to all of the analysis that we're going to

1:26

get to. I think the big

1:28

picture take away from this is that

1:30

one of these candidates is much slicker

1:32

than the other is a much more

1:34

practiced kind of professional debate style

1:37

speaker and the other candidate

1:39

one. There

1:41

was one bad moment for Tim Walls in this

1:43

debate where he got mixed up and embarrassed and

1:45

answering a question about exactly what month he had

1:47

been in China in relation to the Tiananmen Square protest. But

1:51

then on guns, on

1:53

January 6th, on Obamacare, on

1:56

the economy, on blaming everything

1:58

on the border. back

2:00

again on health care, on abortion, on

2:04

every issue on substance.

2:08

J.D. Vance was very polished and very

2:11

slick, and Tim Walz

2:14

beat him on all the substantive points. At least

2:16

that was my take on it. I

2:18

do think that there was one very

2:21

blunt, very easily disprovable lie

2:23

on a very important issue

2:26

that is going to be real trouble for J.D.

2:28

Vance coming out of this, which was him saying

2:30

I never supported a national ban on abortion. J.D.

2:33

Vance is bluntly on the record and

2:36

on tape saying I

2:38

want abortion to be illegal

2:41

nationwide. His actual quote

2:43

was, I certainly would like abortion

2:45

to be illegal nationally. Saying I

2:47

never supported a national abortion ban

2:49

when that's out there is something

2:51

you're never going to shake in

2:54

your campaign, particularly when so much

2:56

of the country is mobilized on this issue

2:58

of reproductive rights, the first presidential election

3:01

after the fall of Roe versus Wade. Nicole.

3:05

Why am I always first? Because you lost the

3:07

short straw. So I think

3:09

that J.D. Vance spent the night sort of

3:11

building an intricate and beautiful Ford out of

3:13

toothpicks. And it was perfect. And

3:15

at the end, he sneezed on it,

3:17

the whole thing fell apart, and he had to

3:19

walk out of that room over the broken toothpicks.

3:22

I think that God bless the people

3:24

who watched the whole thing and stayed locked in on it. I

3:26

checked in with about 20 people all to do this

3:28

and watch this for a living. And they were kind

3:30

of in and out of some parts of it. But

3:34

no matter how you watch this, if you

3:36

cannot say what happened in 2020, and

3:40

the only reason you're there is because what

3:42

actually happened in 2020 is that Donald Trump

3:44

sent his supporters to hang Mike Pence. Just

3:46

ask them. Yeah. Then you

3:48

lose. And I think that, you know,

3:51

Governor Walts had a lot of

3:53

great moments. Tim Walz built that

3:55

perfect artifice. I mean, J.D.

3:57

Vance built this perfect artifice. He was speaking.

3:59

thinking as though he were running to be

4:02

Mitt Romney's wife. I mean, he spoke tonight.

4:04

It was a performance that was kind

4:07

of amazing and totally disconnected from the

4:09

person who he's running

4:11

with, Donald Trump. But still unable to

4:13

say that Trump lost the election in

4:15

2020. And in that moment, unable to

4:18

say it. In the moment, I think

4:20

everything that he did for 88 minutes

4:22

was lost and wiped out by that

4:25

one inability to tell the truth in

4:27

front of a huge television audience. Well,

4:29

that moment was the moment of the

4:31

night. I mean, it's like, wait, why

4:33

is he here? Oh,

4:36

right. The Mike Pence thing. Right? So

4:38

that was the moment of the night. J.D. Vance is

4:40

very good at this, right? I mean, this is what he's been

4:42

doing since he was in college in the

4:44

Yale Law. Like talking to libs and being kind of

4:46

like, well, I sort of agree with you here, but

4:48

here's the other part of this. Like, and he did

4:50

that all perfectly fine. There were,

4:53

I thought, walls on the substance, particularly on

4:55

healthcare, was very, very strong on healthcare on

4:57

the sort of basic of like the tax cuts and who

5:00

you're fighting for. Again, these are meat

5:02

and potato core messages. The two moments that I think

5:04

kind of broke me a little bit, I don't know

5:06

about the median information level

5:08

of the viewer, the

5:10

level of gaslighting to say that Donald

5:14

Trump saved the ACA. Yes,

5:16

he saved Obamacare. Like, we've

5:18

madly gone up on national

5:20

television and said that Donald

5:22

Trump had saved Obamacare. In

5:24

a bipartisan way. In

5:26

a bipartisan way. And despite the fact, trying to

5:28

reveal it multiple times, and Waltz had a very

5:30

good fact check on that. And then I

5:33

thought nothing was going to top that, but what

5:36

topped it was he handed power over

5:38

peacefully on January 20th. I said it

5:40

twice. Yes. When the coup failed

5:42

and the cops brains had all been bashed

5:45

in and there were actual dead bodies and

5:47

blood on the Capitol, 14 days

5:50

later, we did manage to actually do it.

5:52

And he didn't show up for the transfer

5:54

of power, by the way. He said it's

5:56

really rich for Democratic leaders to say Trump

5:58

is a unique threat to democracy. when

6:00

he peacefully gave over power on January the

6:03

20th. And everybody's like, what is

6:05

that alternate universe in which that happened I would

6:07

like to visit? It seems nice and much less

6:09

violent. Joy. Yeah, I mean,

6:11

at that moment when Tim Wal said, you

6:13

really can't answer that question. You really can't say

6:15

that Donald Trump lost the election. You can't do

6:17

that. That was the moment of the night. But

6:19

I was just going through and catalog, you guys

6:22

have mentioned some of them. He said there were

6:24

25 million undocumented immigrants in the country. It's probably

6:26

more like 15, 16. He

6:28

said that he repeatedly

6:30

lied about Springfield again and did it so

6:32

insistently that he had to have his mic

6:35

muted because he kept trying to jump in

6:37

and continue to lie about these people. He

6:39

said they were brought in through something called

6:41

the CBP1 app. And

6:43

that is an app that immigrants can use to

6:45

come in and get a certain kind of visa.

6:47

That was launched in 2020 under,

6:50

drum roll, Donald Trump. He says

6:53

that he never supported a national

6:55

abortion ban. I have here a

6:57

printout that is already circulating all

6:59

over social media. This is

7:02

from the campaign website of J.D. Vance when

7:07

he ran for the United States Senate. It is

7:09

headlined End Abortion.

7:12

He says he's 100% pro-life, believes abortion has

7:14

turned his society into a place where we

7:16

see children's and inconvenience, on and on and

7:18

on. You also gave one of the quotes,

7:20

I would certainly like to see abortion illegal

7:22

nationally. He also said he was sympathetic to

7:24

the view that a national ban would be

7:26

necessary to stop women from traveling across states

7:29

to obtain an abortion. So he's in favor

7:31

of a sort of fugitive slave act to

7:34

stop abortion. So he said that as well.

7:36

He blamed undocumented immigrants for everything from rising

7:38

house prices, rising food prices, inflation, maybe ghosts

7:41

and bad weather. I mean, he was blaming

7:43

undocumented immigrants for every single thing. I think

7:45

Tim Walz was really skillful in knocking those

7:47

things down individually because he was speaking as

7:50

a governor and could speak from his own

7:52

experience. He did a great job talking about

7:54

housing costs and how those actually worked. The

7:56

bipartisan way to save healthcare was absolutely absurd.

7:59

He said, He said, most of our solar

8:01

panels are coming from China. It's literally the

8:03

opposite. Google the Department of Education that says,

8:06

80% of our solar panels come from,

8:08

drum roll, the United States. Trump peacefully gave

8:11

over power on January 20, kinda

8:13

skipped January 6th when he was trying to overthrow

8:15

the government. He couldn't answer the question, did Trump

8:17

lose the election? A smooth

8:19

lie is still alive. J.D.

8:21

Vance is incredibly smooth, but

8:24

he said, number one, nothing memorable. There's

8:27

nothing clippable in what he said. They

8:29

were just all smooth bland lies. He

8:31

got out done by

8:33

Tim Walz, who may be awkward. He

8:35

may got hit, took him a while to get

8:37

warmed up, but he won the debate because he

8:39

actually had substance, he was relatable, and he didn't

8:42

go in there to slay J.D. Vance.

8:45

He went in there to show himself,

8:47

and he showed himself to be bipartisan.

8:49

He showed himself to be reasonable. He

8:51

showed himself to be practical. He acted

8:54

as a governor. And a

8:56

lot of people are complaining that he didn't

8:58

knock J.D. Vance out, and that he wasn't

9:00

rhetorically cruel, but that was not his job.

9:02

It was obvious that his job was to

9:04

sell Kamala Harris as president.

9:06

He did that very well. He won

9:08

the debate. I wrote a note to

9:10

myself that he was not on offense

9:12

against Vance in the first half of

9:14

the debate, and then he came back

9:16

after that break, right? After the break,

9:18

it was like, just destroyed him on

9:21

healthcare, and then the January 6th, January

9:23

20th thing, I mean, I

9:25

scratched out my own note. True, he was

9:27

not on offense against Vance for the first

9:29

half of the debate, and then he came

9:31

back and more than made up for it.

9:33

Yeah, right. You know, he will be remembered

9:35

for that final exchange about, you know, did

9:38

Trump lose the election, and he doesn't

9:40

answer. His technique is to not answer.

9:42

It makes him, by the way, the

9:44

very first vice presidential candidate in history

9:46

who doesn't know who won the election.

9:49

That's his place to be. That's his

9:51

place to be. Where did you

9:53

see this job list? Are

9:55

you Republicans already in office? It

9:57

came at the end of a long

9:59

list. of questions that he simply didn't

10:02

answer. He said words but didn't answer.

10:04

For example, the first one he didn't

10:06

answer. Donald Trump says,

10:08

climate change is a hoax. Do you

10:10

agree? That's a one word answer, yes

10:13

or no. He didn't answer

10:15

that. He just kept talking. And

10:18

he was then asked, will you

10:20

separate parents from

10:23

children, even if the children are

10:25

US citizens? No answer. Did

10:27

not answer that question. Donald

10:30

Trump's budget plan will cost $5

10:33

trillion added to the national

10:36

debt. What's your solution to that? No answer.

10:41

Will you monitor pregnancy? Got an answer, he

10:43

said no. Actually said no to that. Finally,

10:46

there was an answer. He

10:49

was then asked, where are

10:51

you going to seize the federal

10:54

lands to

10:56

build on? And he gave no answer.

10:58

Now, that's a really important question. If

11:01

you're trying to build anything in America, we really

11:03

want to know where it is. And a lot

11:05

of people don't want it to be in their

11:07

backyard. And then, of course, Walls followed up on

11:10

that by saying, so when you seize the federal

11:12

land for the housing, is that also the federal

11:14

land you're seizing for the drilling? Are we having

11:16

people live in the world, Darks? Are they all

11:19

going to be together? No answer. Yeah, no answer.

11:23

And then we get to the final big

11:25

no answer, which is going to be on

11:27

a loop now of did he lose the

11:29

election and the inability to answer that. And

11:31

so just on that

11:33

very simple debate concept

11:36

of, here's the question and you answer

11:38

it, he lost spectacularly on any scorecard

11:40

when you just give him a zero

11:42

for every single one that he didn't

11:45

answer. Can I say something about the

11:47

moderators? Because we spend

11:49

a lot of time on it before the debate. And they

11:52

defied whatever. I mean, they did a

11:54

great job. And

11:57

they also used their mic muting

11:59

power. And I actually think if you're

12:02

a woman, that might be the worst moment

12:04

J.D. Vance had, because he was going to

12:06

mansplain right over that mute button. And

12:09

again, I don't pretend to know how everyone

12:12

will react to this. I think that a

12:14

lot of women in positions

12:16

of authority that should command respect just

12:18

by virtue of that dynamic will see

12:21

themselves and some do the disrespect of

12:23

them and talked over. I

12:25

mean, there was a moment like that with

12:27

the vice presidential in the Harris-Pence debate where

12:30

she said, I'm speaking. There is

12:32

this real belief that what he had to say

12:34

was more important than the debate rules and the

12:36

moderator. And to Joy's

12:38

point, the substance of that moment

12:40

was when he was lying about

12:43

immigrants in Springfield, Ohio again. And

12:45

Tim Walz had called him out on it. And then

12:48

he was trying to say, no, no, no, no, I'm

12:50

not lying. Let me tell you why I'm calling them

12:52

illegal immigrants, even though they are not

12:54

illegal immigrants. Let me mansplain the law to

12:56

you. And the moderators in

12:58

that point not only muted his mic, but

13:00

said, thank you for explaining the law. It's

13:03

not what we're asking you about. But that's

13:05

when he also complained about being fact checked.

13:07

Saying the rules said you cannot fact check

13:09

me. That's one of the things that's in

13:12

the video that we'll be hearing a lot of. Norah

13:14

O'Donnell did a fact check that

13:16

was indirect at the end of the

13:18

climate change discussion and the discussion ended.

13:21

And she just said directly the overwhelming

13:23

consensus among scientists is climate change

13:25

is warming at an unprecedented rate. She

13:27

just said it, not in a direct

13:30

confrontation to J.D. Vance. So I saw

13:32

that and I thought, OK, there's that

13:34

method. But then when it was a

13:37

direct fact check to J.D. Vance,

13:39

he did complain that CBS was violating

13:41

its own rule. This podcast is supported

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13:50

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need. Planned Parenthood organizations advocate for health

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freedom to control their own bodies. More

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14:43

MSNBC's Lawrence O'Donnell. When I worked for

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your podcasts. In

15:44

case you're just joining us, it's the top of the

15:46

hour. Let me say we're super grateful to have you

15:48

watching our coverage of the vice presidential debate here on

15:50

MSNBC. It was a debate that

15:52

I think started essentially as kind of a slow burn.

15:55

Like I thought, oh, this is going to be cordial,

15:57

which is good. I'm not sure what's

15:59

happening here. on the substance, the pace of it

16:02

was much slower at the beginning, and then

16:04

about midpoint, it really took off. And then we

16:06

had what I think was a, what

16:09

I thought was almost a knockout on

16:11

healthcare. I thought Walz basically knocked

16:13

out a Vance on healthcare. First of

16:15

all, he wobbled really badly on guns. We can talk about

16:17

that. He almost knocked him out on healthcare. And then when

16:19

we got to January 6th, he was out cold. There

16:22

was something about the debate too, just in sort of

16:24

tone and format to your point about the slow burn.

16:26

Like I remember that Chaney Lieberman debate in 2000, they

16:28

were sitting next to each other. It was very collegial,

16:30

very avuncular, very we agree on stuff. And there was

16:33

some of that vibe you saw a little bit of

16:35

like, oh, this is the JD Vance that made lots

16:37

of liberal friends at Yale. This is the Tim Walz

16:39

that won a very Republican district in really

16:41

difficult times, including 2010 when basically every other

16:43

Democrat got kicked out of the house. You

16:45

saw an ability to be able to like,

16:48

okay, I can talk to people who don't

16:50

agree with me. Right?

16:52

But the thing that really sort of like

16:55

cut it was to get back to that democracy

16:57

question in the end, which it

17:00

was interesting. Walz almost apologizes for

17:02

it where he says like, we're agreeing on a lot

17:04

of stuff and there's a lot of bipartisan. This is a

17:06

thing I can't go with you on. And I just

17:08

thought it was very human. You could tell you

17:11

could see it in his face because you

17:13

can hear when someone's throat is a

17:15

little close. He doesn't like fighting and

17:17

arguing. He doesn't like delivering the blow. It's not

17:19

who he is. He had to kind of steal

17:21

himself. He almost apologized for it. I'm so shocked. I'm

17:24

so shocked. I'm kind of bummed out by this

17:26

dude that you would say that. But it was, I

17:28

found that part all the more effective because of what

17:31

you were saying about that sort of like slow burn

17:33

and sort of collegiality and pretty wonky on stuff like

17:35

housing, which I thought was actually a good exchange and

17:37

sort of interesting. That part, it

17:39

was like, right, we can all

17:41

walk together and talk about these policy things up

17:44

to a point. But there is a point

17:46

at which we can't. And

17:48

I, Tim Walz, am saying this is really the point.

17:50

Let me just actually break the wall here a second.

17:52

Ask the control room. Do we have SOT-19? The

17:56

piece of sound that you're getting, that you're referring to, we're

17:58

going to try to turn around quicker than. It

18:00

takes us a second after the end of the debate to get

18:02

all these pieces of sound turns around. But

18:04

I think that one we've pulled. I just want people to hear exactly

18:07

what you're talking about here. Talk

18:10

about the state of democracy, the

18:12

top issue for Americans after the

18:14

economy and inflation. After

18:16

the 2020 election, President Trump's

18:19

campaign and others filed 62

18:21

lawsuits contesting the results. Judges,

18:24

including those appointed by President

18:26

Trump and other Republican presidents,

18:28

looked at the evidence and

18:30

said there was no widespread

18:32

fraud. The governors

18:34

of every state in the

18:36

nation, Republicans and Democrats, certified

18:38

the 2020 election

18:41

results and sent a legal slate

18:43

of electors to Congress for January

18:45

6th. Senator

18:47

Vance, you have said you would not

18:50

have certified the last presidential election and

18:52

would have asked the states to submit

18:54

alternative electors. That has

18:56

been called unconstitutional and illegal. Would

18:59

you again seek to challenge this year's

19:02

election results, even if every governor certifies

19:04

the results? I'll give you two minutes.

19:06

Well, Laura, first of all, I think

19:09

that we're focused on the future. I

19:14

just think for everyone tonight and

19:16

I'm going to thank Senator

19:18

Vance. I think this is the

19:20

conversation they want to hear. And I

19:23

think there's a lot of agreement. This is one that

19:25

we are miles apart on. This was

19:27

a threat to our democracy in a way that we

19:29

had not seen. And it manifested

19:31

itself because of Donald Trump's inability to say he

19:33

is still saying he didn't lose the election. I

19:35

would just ask that. Did he lose the 2020

19:38

election? Tim, I'm focused

19:40

on the future. Did Kamala Harris censor

19:42

Americans from speaking their mind in the

19:44

wake of the 2020 covid situation? That

19:48

is a damning that is a damning non-answer. The

19:52

verbal rejoinder there, half as powerful as the facial

19:54

expression in that moment. Yeah,

20:00

and that was a moment that was

20:02

coming all night. And I don't know

20:04

if Tim Walz deliberately held it to

20:06

that and waited for it to get

20:08

to that point. But it really was

20:10

the moment that kind of reshuffled

20:13

everything, as Nicole says, everything that you

20:15

thought you had heard in the last

20:17

88 minutes or so changed

20:19

in a way that was very, very, very

20:22

clear. That there's one person

20:24

here who is actually capable of

20:26

dealing with reality. And there's this

20:28

other person who will say anything,

20:30

whatever is necessary to say to

20:32

get through, to thread the

20:34

Trump needle to get where he has

20:37

to be on whatever the

20:39

question is. There was another great moment

20:41

where he was asked a

20:43

very simple direct question, how do you

20:45

protect pre-existing conditions in whatever the Trump

20:47

health care plan will be? And

20:50

his answer was, we already have a

20:52

law for that. That's correct. That is

20:55

Obamacare. That was the very first

20:58

law in American history that actually protected

21:00

people with pre-existing conditions and allows them

21:02

to get health insurance. And the great

21:04

thing about the question, how

21:06

do you protect pre-existing conditions? If you're just

21:08

talking to someone where there was

21:11

no health care plan in place in the

21:13

government, if that was your first

21:15

question, the answer to it actually has to

21:17

become an entire health

21:20

care system. It's

21:22

an answer that builds the entire Obamacare plan

21:24

from that one question, even though that is

21:26

listed as just one thing that it

21:28

does. In order to do that, you have

21:31

to do every other thing that Obamacare does,

21:33

including the subsidies and all that stuff.

21:35

And so that is one

21:37

of those policy questions that shows you

21:39

the utter emptiness of the man. In

21:41

policy terms, it's kind of identical to

21:43

the emptiness of his answer on who

21:45

won the election. And

21:48

for Wallace to be able to say in that

21:50

moment, I know a lot about health care. I've

21:52

worked on this a lot. It's really important in

21:54

my state. Let me just make this simple. What

21:56

you're talking about is the system we had before

21:58

Obamacare, which is why we needed Obamacare. And for

22:00

him to just cut through it all and say,

22:03

this policy that you think you're inventing here and

22:05

sounding all amazing about, that's what we had. And

22:07

that was the disaster that we needed this huge

22:09

reform to fix, that the country is very grateful

22:11

now, which you want to get rid of, which

22:13

Trump tried to get rid of, which only John

22:15

McCain saved us from him being able to get

22:18

rid of it. He just cut through it for

22:20

people who don't maybe have

22:22

the interest in the policy

22:24

in a specifics, but he

22:26

made it so clear in terms of what the stakes are there. It was sort

22:28

of perfectly done in his

22:30

very kind of folksy way.

22:32

Let's go to the spin room now

22:34

to where Illinois governor JB Pritzker is

22:37

standing by with our Alex Wagner. Alex.

22:39

Thanks Rachel. Governor, thank you for wading

22:41

through the scrum to join me here.

22:43

Let's talk about what happened on that

22:46

debate stage. Starting, I think probably with

22:48

Governor Walz's strongest answer, which unfortunately came

22:50

at the very end, but I'm optimistic

22:52

that people followed this to the 90

22:55

minutes. Talking about January 6th, what happened

22:57

at the Capitol and also the certification

22:59

of the 2020 election. He

23:02

wouldn't say who won the election. He

23:04

said, I want to talk about the

23:06

future. He basically suggested that Trump's interest

23:08

in all the lawsuits that he filed

23:10

or allies of his filed was about

23:12

an open conversation about the election. I

23:15

mean, I think Governor Walz gave the

23:17

line of the night when he said, Mike

23:19

Pence isn't on the stage. Where

23:21

is the firewall now? This

23:23

person suggesting that,

23:26

you know, J.D. Vance was not going

23:28

to do the thing that Mike Pence

23:30

did, but importantly, which is stand up

23:32

to Donald Trump as he tries to

23:34

subvert democracy. What did you think

23:36

about that moment? And how much do you think that

23:38

now is in the forefront of voters mind setting into

23:40

the last stretch of the election? This

23:43

election is about the future of our democracy.

23:45

And so that's why that question was so

23:47

important, even if it came at the very

23:49

end. Yeah. Because what you heard was J.D.

23:52

Vance not willing to say that Donald

23:54

Trump won the 2020 election. I mean,

23:56

how can you actually think that that

23:59

person? should be vice president of the

24:01

United States if he can't even admit

24:03

what is true, because, well,

24:05

he's the mini me for Donald Trump who

24:07

can't live up to the idea or can't,

24:10

you know, tell the truth about the 2020

24:12

election. So I think that we're,

24:14

you know, this was

24:16

the perfect frame for the rest

24:18

of the debate. If you look

24:20

back at the rest, what you'll

24:22

see is a slick debater and

24:24

JD Vance who consistently could not

24:26

answer a question. He just kept

24:28

shifting, shifting, shifting. And we

24:30

all know, for example, let's talk about

24:32

healthcare. We all know that Donald Trump

24:34

and the Republicans tried to, well,

24:37

pull back and end Obamacare.

24:39

Right? And over and

24:41

over again, they tried to do that. And yet that's

24:43

not what you heard from JD Vance. It was Tim

24:46

Walz who had to call him out on it and

24:48

make sure that he, you know, was

24:50

answering for the idea that, you know, they

24:52

want to take away the coverage for people

24:54

with preexisting conditions. They want to take away

24:56

coverage for, you know, your 26 year

24:59

olds and under who are covered

25:01

by the ACA. That over and over

25:03

you heard lies and kind of slick

25:05

answers from JD Vance. And you know

25:07

what you heard from Tim Walz? It was a

25:09

guy who was like a trust that lives down

25:11

the street from you. The coach that you had

25:14

in high school that you trusted the teacher that

25:16

you could confide in. And

25:18

just, he spoke in a way that

25:20

I think everyday Americans, you know, the

25:23

working families of America really understand. Are

25:26

you at all surprised that there were,

25:28

I think, a number of moments in

25:30

this debate where JD Vance was trying

25:32

to, I guess, burnish his credentials as

25:34

an empath and suggest that he kind

25:37

of, he cared about the struggles. He

25:39

was more bipartisan in posture than perhaps

25:41

you'd seen him in other media appearances.

25:43

You know, he tried to agree, at

25:45

least notionally with Governor Walz on some

25:48

things, even though obviously these two tickets

25:50

are diametrically opposed on substantive policy issues.

25:52

But I mean, do you

25:54

think that's gonna convince anybody? Because as you say,

25:56

he is a fairly slick order. He

25:58

was very rehearsed. but it was also a

26:01

slightly different posture than what he's taken before. Look,

26:04

he's a slick order for sure,

26:06

but you saw a

26:08

lot of inconsistencies and

26:10

his whole history is a list

26:12

of inconsistencies. The guy hasn't held a job for

26:14

more than two years. He

26:17

hasn't been able to keep the

26:19

same views on things. Remember, he

26:21

called Donald Trump America's Hitler. He

26:23

called Donald Trump a Nazi

26:25

just a few years ago. Now

26:27

he's his running mate and his

26:29

mini me, repeating all of the

26:31

lines of Donald Trump and defending

26:33

Donald Trump. So what is it

26:35

about him? It's that he wants

26:38

to achieve power. He wants to

26:40

get in positions, but he is

26:42

willing to, well, compromise himself and

26:44

any morals or ethos that

26:46

he may have ever had in his

26:48

life in order to get there. That's

26:50

been the problem for J.D. Vance and

26:52

that's why he's so unpopular with the

26:54

American public. Yeah, he has historically high

26:56

unpopularity that is certainly true. I was

26:59

struck by his, I mean,

27:01

just how candid he was in terms of

27:03

the problem Republicans understand themselves to have on

27:05

the issue of abortion. He at one point

27:08

said, we have got to do a much

27:10

better job on abortion and also said, not

27:12

all Americans agree with what I've said before,

27:14

which is the litany of strange and weird

27:16

proclamations on everything to what post-menopausal women should

27:18

be doing to the age at which women

27:21

should be having children. Do

27:23

you, I mean, first of all, that seems to reflect,

27:26

broad thinking inside the GOP that they

27:28

are hemorrhaging voters on this topic. What

27:32

did you think of his concession to

27:34

how badly the party's doing on the

27:36

topic? Well, I remember what he was

27:38

really saying. He was spanks basically saying,

27:41

well, trust me and trust Donald Trump,

27:43

right? That we'll do the right thing,

27:45

trust us. And you heard Tim Walz

27:47

say, we trust women. That's what Democrats

27:50

stand for. That's what Kamala Harris and

27:52

Tim Walz stand for. So I thought

27:54

that contrast was very, very clear. And

27:56

yeah, the Republican party has a lot

27:59

to answer for because the... deaths that

28:01

Tim Walz is talking about of women

28:03

who aren't able to get the kind

28:05

of reproductive services that they deserve because

28:07

doctors feel like they might go to

28:10

prison if they perform those services because

28:13

it's been criminalized in so many

28:15

states. I mean I'm in Illinois

28:17

where we've had to create an

28:19

oasis for people because every state

28:21

around us has criminalized or gotten

28:23

rid of abortion services. So people

28:25

are traveling hundreds of miles unfortunately

28:27

but at least they have a

28:29

place to go to protect themselves.

28:31

Tim Walz believes that the entire country

28:34

should be the haven for women. You

28:36

should be able to go to your

28:38

local hospital or your local doctor and

28:40

get the reproductive services you deserve whereas

28:42

Donald Trump and J.D. Vance are okay

28:44

with people dying in the parking lot.

28:46

Well right and J.D. Vance at one

28:48

point expresses effectively condolences for

28:50

Amber Thurman the woman in Georgia who died

28:53

because she had to leave that abortion desert.

28:55

Go get care in North Carolina and died

28:57

and effectively the back and forth of treatment

29:00

but then also on the same hand J.D. Vance

29:02

says but I think the abortion decision is best

29:04

left to the states. Well this is like everything

29:06

with the Republicans right their policies lead to people's

29:08

deaths and then they say oh thoughts and prayers

29:11

right this is the same thing about a ban on

29:13

assault weapons which is what we need in the United

29:15

States what Tim Walz and Kamala

29:18

Harris want for the people of the United

29:20

States and to protect our children right and

29:22

what do they say on the other side

29:24

oh thoughts and prayers when people die but

29:26

they do absolutely nothing to protect our children

29:28

and protect people on the streets who are

29:30

being gunned down by AR-15s. Governor J.B. Pritzker

29:32

of Illinois sir thank you for taking time

29:34

out of the mosh pit to come visit

29:36

me good luck in there. Good to see

29:38

you. Back to you Rachel. Thank

29:41

you Governor and thank you Alex we're looking at

29:44

live images here of Governor Tim Walz and his

29:46

wife Gwen getting pizza at I

29:48

think this is a place on 10th Avenue I

29:50

think I know this place. UC

29:53

Secret Service and other folks around but they're just

29:55

there he is paying for the pizza. We

29:57

think that both candidates are overnighting in New York.

30:00

before they head back out onto the campaign trail tomorrow.

30:02

Our friends, it's called Justina's,

30:04

I'm advised. Our colleague, Simone

30:07

Sanderson has joined us. Simone, what'd you think of the

30:09

debate? Well, Rachel,

30:11

look. I'm

30:14

in the Nicole Wallace Caucus tonight. Let

30:16

me just say this, that debates are

30:18

about performance and they are about policy.

30:22

And why this debate was

30:24

very important is that there are many Americans

30:26

out there, not just moderate Republicans, they're based

30:28

Democratic voters that are saying they

30:30

want to and need to hear more. Now, I

30:33

think it is very fair for people to want

30:35

to criticize those based Democratic voters and say, well,

30:37

what more do you need? You

30:39

can do that, but that is their lived reality. And so

30:41

if you were trying to win their votes, you have to

30:43

meet them where they are. There

30:45

were so many niceties on that debate stage

30:47

tonight. I am just kind of like, well,

30:50

if you agree so much with JD Vizz,

30:52

why should they vote for you? I

30:55

fully believe that Governor Wallace went out there tonight

30:57

and did what was practice in debate prep, did

30:59

what the strategy was that the

31:01

team put together. That was not the

31:04

Governor Wallace that we, that I had seen out on

31:06

the campaign trail. That's not the Governor Wallace that I

31:08

had seen during the Veep Stakes, right? That was not

31:10

the JD Vance that I know to be true. I

31:12

mean, goodness, JD Vance was on that stage, he was

31:14

sorry about Amber Thurman. He was sorry about a lot

31:17

of stuff. We

31:19

get things wrong, but do you give it the

31:21

policy? And then I just, you

31:23

know, that's not the Margaret and nor that I

31:25

know. Margaret don't do that on Sunday morning. So

31:28

I just think that I know that there's

31:30

so many people out there that want normal,

31:32

they want normalcy. They just want, you know,

31:34

just be able to just disagree with someone.

31:38

You said a lot of things I agree with. This

31:41

is not a normal election. JD

31:43

Vance is actually not Paul Ryan.

31:46

And Donald Trump sure as heck is not

31:48

Mitt Romney, okay? And what happened

31:50

on that debate stage tonight is was not

31:52

enough contrast, was not clear enough for people

31:54

sitting at home or frankly, who will probably

31:56

consume this through the clips in their local

31:58

news or here on. MSNBC or on

32:01

social media to distinguish and make a

32:03

difference. Sure, Governor Pritzker was absolutely correct.

32:05

He did a lot of lies and

32:07

people know he was correct about one

32:09

part. J.D. Vance is a lot of

32:11

lying. But everyone doesn't know that J.D.

32:13

Vance is lying. There is somewhere right

32:15

now, a Republican TikTok creator putting

32:17

up a little clip talking about how, yes, Donald

32:20

Trump saved Obamacare. There

32:23

was no one there to count. I mean,

32:25

some of this, so I think that Governor

32:27

Walz got better on the counter block and

32:29

tackling in the second half, but still. But

32:33

on that Obamacare point, so Walz came in and said,

32:35

Donald Trump was trying to get rid of Obamacare and

32:37

he would have, and he signed onto this lawsuit, lost

32:39

it, and then had a bill to get rid of

32:41

it and would have got there had it not been

32:43

for John McCain. You don't think that was a good

32:45

enough rebuttal? J.D. Vance said, well,

32:47

Donald Trump strengthened and saved Obamacare. That's what he

32:49

came back and said. Right. It's

32:51

the audacity. I agree with

32:53

you that we're in year nine and

32:55

no one knows how to cover the

32:58

audacity. The audacity is that someone should

33:00

have said, stop it. Stop. Stop. Are

33:02

you f'ing kidding me? And they should have dropped

33:04

that F bomb, right? I mean, they should have

33:06

just, this is a debate. This may be the

33:08

only chance people have to see the difference. And

33:11

instead, I'm going to go back to my toothpicks.

33:13

J.D. Vance just put one little toothpick on top

33:15

of the other and said, and I'm for this

33:17

and I'm for this. And I'm so sorry those

33:19

women died. They died because of Donald Trump. One

33:22

man had a litmus test for the people he put

33:24

on the Supreme Court and he put not one toothpick

33:27

three on because they passed a litmus test that they

33:29

would overturn Roe. And that's why Amber died. That's

33:32

why that little boy doesn't have a mom.

33:34

And nobody made that reality come to life.

33:36

Because I think if you, even if you

33:38

didn't get the contrast you were looking for,

33:40

neither did you get any, any,

33:42

you know, wake up and smell the smelling

33:44

salts, you know, sort of lulled into normalcy.

33:46

There was, let me ask you about one

33:48

other, one other subject matter and

33:50

how it went on gun

33:53

violence in schools. They both said the same thing

33:55

about how it's very sad and it breaks your

33:57

heart. And then, um,

34:00

What J.D. Vance said was, listen,

34:03

I think the reason that we have gun violence in

34:05

schools, I'm paraphrasing, is because of the southern border. And

34:08

what we need is stronger windows. He

34:10

literally used the phrase, stronger windows and

34:12

doors that lock better. And

34:16

Governor Walz came in and said, I

34:19

think sometimes the problem is the guns.

34:22

And I say that as a gun owner, somebody

34:24

used to keep a shotgun in my truck so

34:26

I could go pheasant hunting after football practice. I'm

34:28

not here to confiscate everybody's guns, but we've got

34:30

problems with gun policy in this country and that's

34:32

what it is. It's not

34:34

stronger windows is the solution to gun violence

34:36

in the schools. Now, would

34:39

that have made for a better social media

34:41

day tomorrow? Had he said it in a

34:43

punchier way? Is part of the problem here

34:45

style? I feel like on substance- The base

34:47

of part policy, part performance. You have to

34:49

hit the performance. I'm sorry, when Joe Biden

34:51

didn't hit his performance, the people were very

34:53

ready to talk about how Joe Biden didn't

34:55

hit the performance. I think though,

34:58

this was a function of a strategy that they

35:00

devised for Governor Walz. I think this was the

35:02

strategy. And frankly, when you devise, when you are

35:04

going into a debate with someone, the worst thing

35:06

you can do is ask them to be somebody

35:08

else. As you try to build them up and

35:10

try to have them, just put

35:12

on a little something extra that you wouldn't

35:14

usually do. Governor Walz should have

35:17

been able to go on there and be Tim Walz. And

35:19

I think we saw a little more Tim Walz towards

35:21

the mid, later into the debate, but in the beginning, it

35:24

was very clear that he was, doing

35:26

what they had agreed upon the strategy and debate

35:29

prep. You know, I don't think it

35:31

was a good strategy. I disagree

35:33

with you on, I do agree

35:35

that he was following the strategy he was given by

35:37

the campaign, but I don't think

35:39

that this was a debate that was designed

35:41

to move people off of their team if

35:43

they were already on it. This debate is

35:45

not gonna move very many people. There is

35:47

a very small, narrow group of people who

35:49

have not made up their minds about Donald

35:51

Trump and Kamala Harris. That small, narrow group

35:53

of people, when you poll them, you talk

35:55

to them, they seem to want, number one,

35:58

more stuff. substance, they keep asking, I need

36:00

to know more, I need to know more,

36:02

I need to know more details. Tim

36:04

Walz was very detailed and he spoke the

36:06

way a governor speaks about really specific issues

36:08

like gun violence, like healthcare. He was substantive

36:11

and knowledgeable. So if you're that person who

36:13

the thing that's keeping you on the fence

36:15

is you need more details, he gave you

36:17

more details. Number two,

36:19

I don't think that small, narrow group

36:21

of people wanted to see a fistfight.

36:24

And so I think that the people who want the

36:26

fistfight are the base of the Democratic Party. That's

36:29

want to see someone get up

36:31

there and give a knuckle sandwich to Donald

36:33

Trump. That's what they want. But that is

36:35

not the group of people who need this

36:37

debate. Most people are already voting, already know

36:40

what they want. I think the reason that

36:42

Tim Walz was effective in the way he

36:44

did it, he wasn't angry, he was disappointed.

36:46

And that's actually in some ways stronger if

36:48

I'm that undecided and it is a strange

36:50

group of people, these people who can't decide

36:52

between arsenic and pancakes. You

36:56

know, it's like it's very hard to say

36:58

these two things are equal, but there are

37:00

those people. And when I've heard them talk,

37:02

they say things like, I don't know, I

37:05

don't understand Vice President Harris's policies on X,

37:07

Y, and Z. Tim Walz gave you that

37:09

specificity that I think is going to get

37:11

those people to feel more comfortable. And his

37:13

job was to make people feel comfortable. And

37:15

last thing I'll say is to provide a

37:17

permission structure for people who aren't core Democrats

37:19

to come over. And that

37:21

lack of meanness, the kindness, the fact that he says,

37:23

you know, I want to agree with this guy. I

37:26

think that we agree on a lot of things. I

37:28

hate to say it. A lot undecided. That's

37:30

what they want to hear. I just want to note

37:33

that there are a lot of base Democratic voters who

37:35

are not undecided about whether they want to vote for

37:37

Kamala Harris or Donald Trump. They're undecided if they are

37:39

going to vote. And

37:41

I just think if people listen to people,

37:44

listen to some of the voters that they're saying

37:46

that we, Melissa Murray and I talked to, I

37:48

know there were a lot of people who were

37:50

very good. A lot of consternation about some of

37:52

the young women we spoke to in the nail

37:54

shop and our black women in America wrote 20,

37:56

24 special. But

37:59

that young woman. said she didn't think her vote mattered,

38:01

she lives in North Carolina. And

38:03

you can walk her down about her

38:05

position, or you can meet her where

38:08

she is and let her know why her vote matters.

38:10

And what I have heard from a lot of people across the

38:12

country, not strategists, not political strategists,

38:15

just regular people that aren't as tuned

38:17

in, they feel like the campaign

38:19

is doing a lot right now to talk

38:21

to Republican voters, those people in the middle,

38:23

and that they don't think that they need

38:25

to persuade pieces of the base, and they

38:27

do. To me, this feels very much so

38:30

similar right now to 2016, more than it

38:32

does to 2020. That woman

38:34

in the nail shop, had you been able to

38:36

remote control Tim Walz like a drone tonight,

38:39

what would you have had him say or

38:41

do that might have moved her? I think

38:43

the housing conversation, the second part of the

38:45

housing conversation, I think Governor Walz was very,

38:47

I think housing is very important to people

38:49

across the country. When they say affordability and

38:51

the economy, that's what they're talking about. Talking

38:54

about housing, they're talking about rent, they're talking

38:56

about grocery prices. But I thought that housing

38:58

conversation was clear. I thought, I think abortion

39:00

was something that she herself said was important

39:02

to her and the healthcare piece. I think

39:04

sometimes when we get into policy,

39:06

healthcare conversation, it gets a little theoretical.

39:10

But I just think that how you deliver

39:12

the message does matter. And yes, you can

39:14

say it, and you could say, oh, you

39:16

said it, but how

39:18

you say it matters. Yeah. First

39:21

of all, let me ask, do we need to go to Jacob right now? Is

39:23

he ready for us? Okay, he is,

39:26

good. Jacob Soboroff is

39:28

in Oakland University

39:30

in Rochester, Michigan. We spoke with

39:32

him as he was setting up with a bunch of

39:34

students who are going to be watching the debate there at a watch party.

39:37

And he's convinced them to stick around even though the

39:39

debate ended, which itself is a Herculean effort. Jacob,

39:42

take it away. How'd it go? Rachel, look at all the people.

39:44

You guys, thank you very much for sticking around. I really appreciate

39:46

you guys sticking around. The green flags and the red flags, they

39:48

did the whole thing and it was amazing. And

39:58

they don't have them any longer. And

40:00

I don't know if this is gonna surprise

40:02

you. These are not undecided voters necessarily. These

40:04

are voters who could very well tip the

40:07

outcome of the election come

40:09

election day because they live in one of

40:11

the most consequential counties in all of Michigan,

40:13

Oakland County. It was 100,000, as I told

40:15

you before the debate, 100,000

40:18

votes swing from Trump to Biden in the 2020

40:20

election. McCone County,

40:22

one of the neighboring counties is also a very

40:24

important swing county here. Let's just start with a

40:26

show of hands. Did anybody come into this debate

40:29

and leave feeling differently than when they came in

40:31

in terms of candidate? Raise your hand if you

40:34

changed your opinion of the

40:36

candidates because of this debate. Oh,

40:38

really, one. Come on down, dude. Come on down.

40:41

Come on down. Come on down. Come

40:43

on down. Very surprising. What's

40:46

your name? Henry. Henry, what's going

40:48

on? Okay, so you came in feeling what? I

40:51

felt like JD Vance would have been a lot worse. I

40:54

think he's very awkward. His

40:56

other public appearances have been very awkward. I'm

40:58

thinking back to the scenario in the ice

41:01

cream shop where he just made it so

41:03

awkward for the employee and

41:05

they don't want to be on camera. Might have been the

41:07

donut, too, right? Yeah, I just thought, well,

41:09

why can't he just be normal like the rest

41:11

of us? And that's how you felt coming out

41:14

of here. I felt he did a lot better.

41:16

He spoke, I feel the way JD

41:18

Vance works is he works very well when he has a lot

41:20

of preparation. This is

41:22

the debate, he knows about it weeks in advance. So

41:25

he's able to repair. He felt like he prepared better here. I

41:27

think he prepared very well. So one of the

41:29

things, will you do me a favor? These are for you. Thank you very much. Thank

41:32

you. One of the things guys that I thought got the

41:34

strongest reaction here was Jimenez was talking about guns at the

41:36

beginning of the debate. And one

41:38

of the strongest reactions here I thought

41:40

was interesting was Rachel, what you were just talking about

41:43

when JD Vance said, one of the ways ultimately

41:45

that we can stop gun violence in this country is

41:48

by having better locks on

41:50

our doors. Did anybody

41:52

react? You're laughing back

41:54

here. No, you. What's

41:57

your name? Nora. What'd you think when

41:59

you heard JD Vance? talk about that. Jimena was

42:01

talking about how because of what happened at one

42:03

of your neighboring schools here, it's an issue that

42:05

rings close to home. I thought it

42:07

was ridiculous. I mean, the issue

42:10

is guns. The issue is not better locks

42:12

on doors. Reproductive

42:14

freedom is also something that got a big

42:16

reaction in this room. And I saw a

42:18

lot of green flags go up when Governor

42:21

Walz was talking about how he

42:24

wants to protect a woman's right to make her

42:26

own choices. I see you reacting strongly here. Really

42:28

ultimately, guys, what this is about is enthusiasm and

42:30

whether or not in this state that had the

42:32

highest youth voter turnout in the 2022 midterm

42:34

elections, whether or not folks like this are going

42:36

to be compelled to come out. These guys are

42:38

compelled to stay here until 11 o'clock, 11,

42:41

excuse me, 27 on a school night. You

42:44

know, you heard that answer. What did you think? Um,

42:48

sorry, could you repeat that? Reproductive freedom. What

42:50

did you think when you heard Governor

42:52

Walz say that he thought it was a

42:54

woman's right to make

42:56

her own choices? I completely agree with

42:58

that. Like, I feel like that should

43:00

be considered common sense almost, but

43:03

it isn't. It's become such a heated debate

43:05

for what feels like should be

43:07

a no brainer. And he just kind of voiced

43:09

that. The other one was immigration. I thought, God,

43:11

and you guys correct me if you feel like

43:13

I'm misstating everything here. But on immigration, they're

43:16

number one, there was a loud laugh in this room when

43:18

those mics got shut off. And

43:21

that was, of course, around the issue of

43:24

the Haitians that are in Springfield, Ohio

43:26

under the temporary protected status. J.D.

43:29

Vance was saying Senator Vance was saying that they were

43:31

there illegally. Of course, that wasn't true. The moderators pointed

43:33

out and they cut the mic. But

43:35

I also thought you guys in the room

43:37

responded strongly to the pushback on

43:40

the point that President

43:42

Biden and Vice President Harris put forward

43:44

one of the strongest and most conservative,

43:47

actually, Republican bills in

43:49

recent history. And Donald Trump killed that

43:51

bill. Did anybody did that? Did

43:54

that ring true? You're up here. Let me just come up

43:56

here with you real quick. You're not in your

43:58

head. Yes. Hi, what's your name? Why

44:00

was that something James that resonated

44:02

with you? It is true. Congress

44:05

has power for these immigration policies

44:07

and it just keeps getting pushed back

44:10

between presidency to presidency, which Congress does

44:12

have power in these situations. It's

44:15

really just forming a demonization of immigrants, which

44:17

is such an issue. We

44:19

see a lot of violence against immigrant communities.

44:21

These are not illegal people. They

44:24

come here undocumented for whatever reason

44:26

there is. And it's just causing

44:28

more harm than anything. And we just

44:30

need to push towards true policy rather than

44:32

all these talk points. I appreciate it, you

44:34

guys. And I guess maybe the final

44:36

thing that I just wanted to ask, we

44:39

were talking, Marcus, about this constant criticism about

44:41

the vice president not being able...about the vice

44:43

president being in office for these last...he's already

44:45

upset about it. The vice president being in

44:47

office for all these years and not being

44:50

able to make the change was the allegation

44:52

from JD Vance. You said to me, I've

44:54

been to high school civics class. Why

44:56

did you say that? Because if anybody

44:59

took high school civics class, they'd know what

45:01

the vice president can do and what the

45:03

vice president can do. I want to make

45:05

a quick point. Neither candidate

45:07

on that stage talked about what executive

45:09

action they're going to take on day

45:11

one to do what they want, nor

45:13

were they asked, because they know that

45:15

they can't. That's not how the

45:17

vice presidency works. You don't get to do what you

45:20

want. You do what the president delegates you to do.

45:22

So that... That one day, Marcus, is going to

45:25

be all of our teachers in civics class, guys. I

45:27

want to thank you all very much for

45:29

being here. And Rachel, just reiterate

45:31

how important that these voters are, the enthusiasm

45:33

that is here. You can really feel it.

45:37

And it's exciting to be here with all of you guys.

45:39

We appreciate it very much. And I know they

45:41

do too back in the studio. Rachel, back to you. Fate of

45:43

the Nation is in your hands from Madam

45:45

President Ximena and to all of them. Very,

45:48

very thankful. Very thankful to you,

45:50

Jacob, for being there with them. It's inspiring to see them. Thanks,

45:53

Rachel. All right. Thanks, guys.

45:57

Jen Psaki has joined us. Jen, what is your

45:59

reaction to the debate? We have lots of heated

46:01

and interesting discussion, lots of different points of view

46:03

here. First of all, I want to get Marcus

46:05

an internship. Yes, exactly. He knows

46:07

better how civics works and how government works than

46:10

most people. Look, I

46:12

felt that if you're sitting at home and

46:14

you were watching and you were not fact

46:16

checking and you weren't familiar with what JD

46:18

Vance had said previously or what Donald Trump

46:20

stood for, he seemed at

46:22

many moments to be reasonable. And

46:25

that was clearly a change in tone. And I know

46:27

you all were talking about the strategic shift there. That

46:30

was interesting to watch. Watching Tim

46:32

Malls, what I thought about was when he

46:34

emerged onto the scene, we all probably interviewed

46:36

him five times during Veep Stakes, he

46:39

would propel himself single-handedly into Veep

46:41

Stakes, right? He became the running

46:43

mate because they're chemistry, but also

46:46

because he was so effective at

46:48

connecting people authentically and

46:51

organically on television. He's

46:53

been absent. I think that's a huge mistake

46:57

to hold him back and not put him

46:59

out there. Meaning he hasn't been on the

47:01

media for a while. He hasn't been out

47:03

in the media for a while. He's been

47:05

absent. I do think that's a missed opportunity.

47:07

But tonight I felt like he was spending

47:09

a lot of time in the first half

47:11

or two thirds, proving he read the briefing

47:13

materials and I was missing the magic and

47:15

the organic spontaneity of Tim Malls. I know

47:17

you already all talked about the January 6th

47:20

moment, which I thought was great, and the

47:22

moment on healthcare also great. I loved it

47:24

when he quoted the Bible and made it

47:26

about morality on immigration. But

47:28

coming out of it, I hope that they

47:30

free Tim Malls and put him out there

47:33

and let him be rusty at times and

47:35

make mistakes and hug football players and cry

47:37

and be funny sometimes. That's the

47:39

magic. That's why he's on the ticket. Do you

47:42

feel like there was a transition from over the

47:44

course of the debate? I feel like after that

47:46

first break when he came back is when he

47:48

landed all his punches. Yes, he

47:50

was clearly nervous. Who wouldn't be? It's the biggest moment

47:52

you've ever been on in your life on that stage

47:55

he was on tonight. There was a shift I felt,

47:57

maybe about 45, 50 minutes in. around

48:00

abortion, he was quite strong. And I was thinking to myself, and

48:02

we've talked about this, we are now on

48:04

a stage in 2024 where men are

48:07

very comfortable running for office and talking

48:09

in detail about abortion rights and sepsis

48:11

and everything that can happen. And that

48:13

is in itself is progress. On

48:15

gun violence, I thought he was stronger and obviously

48:18

the moment on January 6th, it took him a

48:20

while to get there. My point is, I think

48:22

he's an enormous asset to the campaign. I think

48:24

people really connect with him. That's

48:26

why he's on the ticket. And he should

48:28

be out there more because when he gets

48:30

into a groove, it's sometimes messy, sometimes says

48:32

funny things that are slightly off. That's okay.

48:34

He connects with people because that's who he

48:36

is. And I hope we see more of

48:38

that. That very difficult exchange at the end

48:41

about January 6th, about Vance being

48:43

unable or unwilling to answer about who won the

48:45

2020 election is going

48:47

to be one that sticks. That

48:49

is going to be an important part of

48:51

the legacy of this debate, but also a

48:53

quicker earlier moment in the debate where J.D.

48:56

Vance told a lie that

48:58

is really, really going to stick to

49:00

him, that he told very bluntly, very

49:03

cleanly, and very much 180 degrees wrong.

49:06

And the antidote to it, the fact check on

49:09

it, is himself on tape. That

49:11

one is really, really going to stick to him. We'll

49:13

have that for you right on the other side of

49:15

this break. We'll be right back. Stay with us here

49:17

on MSNBC. When

49:21

Donald Trump said, I've got a

49:23

concept of a plan, it cracked me up as a

49:25

fourth grade teacher because my kids would have never given

49:27

me that. But what Senator Vance

49:30

just explained might be worse than a concept

49:32

because what he explained is pre-Obamacare. And I'll

49:34

make this as simple as possible because I

49:36

have done this for a long time. What

49:39

they're saying is, if you're

49:41

healthy, why should you be paying more?

49:44

So what they're going to do is let insurance

49:46

companies pick who they insure. MSNBC's

49:50

Lawrence O'Donnell. When I worked for

49:53

Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, I learned

49:55

about commitment. Building New York's

49:57

newest train station was Senator Moynihan's idea.

50:00

It took 30 years and never giving

50:02

up. When we register to vote, we

50:05

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50:14

Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, weeknights

50:16

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50:20

Hi, I'm Stacey Abrams, voting

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50:29

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50:45

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two of Velshi Band Book Club. Listen

51:01

now. Senator

51:07

about that, he mentioned, I think referring to

51:09

a national ban. In the past, you have

51:11

supported a federal ban on

51:14

abortion after 15 weeks. In

51:16

fact, you said if someone can't

51:18

support legislation like that, quote, you

51:21

are making the United States the

51:23

most barbaric pro-abortion regime anywhere in

51:25

the entire world. My question

51:27

is, why have you changed your position? Well,

51:30

Nora, first of all, I never supported a

51:32

national ban. I did during when I was

51:34

running for Senate in 2022 talk about setting

51:36

some minimum national standard. Okay, okay,

51:39

okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, but

51:41

wait, I never

51:43

supported a national ban. I talked

51:45

about setting some minimum national standard.

51:47

I never supported a national ban.

51:51

Do we have tape of

51:53

reality here? I

51:56

certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally.

52:00

So if you're on tape saying,

52:02

I certainly would like abortion to

52:04

be illegal nationally, that

52:06

means you supported a national ban on

52:09

abortion. J.D. Vance,

52:11

an incredibly slick, facile

52:14

talker. I mean, he's a professional talking head. This

52:16

is what he's been doing his whole adult life.

52:19

But on that one, on an issue that

52:21

important to lie on something that bluntly, I

52:23

feel like Ari, that's going to follow him

52:25

around a little bit. Yeah, it's a huge

52:27

deal. It might have been the most significant

52:29

substantive gaffe. We were having debate earlier on

52:31

the table about style. Yeah. This

52:34

was a substantive, huge error. He

52:36

lied. He lied because his past

52:38

position is too close to the

52:40

real Donald Trump, Project 2025 position.

52:43

The GOP platform also talks this up.

52:45

It doesn't use the national ban language.

52:48

But this is the person,

52:51

Donald Trump, who put the people on the court

52:53

to overturn Roe. They all pledged to do it.

52:56

They're not just looking for some

52:58

interstate quilt program, which is

53:00

what they've currently fallen back on as a,

53:02

I would again, I say this respectfully, but

53:04

a nonsensical or illogical defense of their position.

53:06

They are looking long term and it's all

53:08

out there for a national ban, which means

53:10

wherever you live in the country, California,

53:13

New York, wherever, that would be their

53:15

policy. And they're giving away the game

53:18

everywhere in the country that Republicans are

53:20

in control. Right now, there is an

53:22

abortion ban. Yes. And so if you

53:25

want abortion to be banned, vote for

53:27

Republicans. Everywhere they get power, they do

53:29

it. And this is J.D. Vance and

53:32

Donald Trump saying they want power nationally.

53:34

And Harris, here is J.D. Vance bluntly

53:36

lying about his overt statement that he

53:39

wants it illegal nationwide. And just briefly,

53:41

that's why it's so important that he

53:43

also admitted under questioning, wait, I thought

53:46

we agreed on no fact

53:48

checking. That's important if lying about your

53:50

positions from abortion policy to what happened

53:52

on January 6 is central to your

53:54

campaign and how you plan to hopefully

53:56

win over votes is by lying to

53:59

people. On a lighter note, it

54:01

reminded me a little bit of the famous Saturday Night

54:03

Live impression of the Gerald Ford debate when he said,

54:05

I thought there would be no math. And

54:07

the joke was the president has to deal

54:09

with these things. I thought that was a

54:11

real giveaway from Vans. I

54:13

think there's lies and there's misrepresenting things,

54:16

right? So J.D. Vance showed up tonight

54:18

to sort of put a smoother sheen

54:20

on Trumpism, which is interesting because it's

54:22

the opposite of who he is on

54:24

the campaign trail. On the campaign trail,

54:26

he is the most aggressive, the most

54:29

offensive. But his goal was to sort

54:31

of take you back to this idea

54:33

that pre-COVID life was great. We had

54:35

this great economy. And people like to

54:37

tend to go back and believe that

54:39

forgetting that Donald Trump had the same

54:41

economy, slightly worse than President Obama did.

54:44

But he really got up there

54:46

and lied or stretched things when

54:48

he would immediately link migrants, illegal

54:50

migrants, which they're not in Springfield,

54:52

Ohio, to the lack of affordable

54:54

housing, which simply isn't true. He

54:56

all but said Donald Trump protected

54:58

Obamacare. And in those cases, you're watching

55:00

Tim All's going, come on, like, are you going to

55:02

get in there? Are you going

55:04

to get in there? And it wasn't

55:06

until J.D. Vance simply wouldn't

55:09

say that Joe Biden won the

55:11

election free and fair. And

55:13

that's kind of what gave the game away.

55:15

They're like, yes, he was slick. He gave a

55:17

great excuse to lots of people who don't want

55:19

to publicly say that they're voting for Trump. They're

55:22

like, he's okay. Right then and there, you're like, oh,

55:24

everything that you said before this, I'm not so sure

55:27

of. We all know who won the election.

55:29

You know, we played a little bit from that portion at the end

55:31

of the debate, the discussion about January 6th, the discussion

55:33

about whether or not we respect election results. We

55:35

played a little bit of it before, but there's one other

55:37

piece of it that we haven't played yet that and we're all

55:40

talking about it. So let's just hear it. I

55:43

see a candidate out there who

55:45

refused. And now again, and this I'm pretty

55:48

shocked by this. He lost the election. When

55:51

Mike Pence made that decision

55:54

to certify that election, that's why

55:56

Mike Pence isn't on this stage. What

55:59

I'm concerned about is where is

56:01

the firewall with Donald Trump?

56:04

Where is the firewall if he knows

56:07

he could do anything including

56:10

taking an election and

56:12

his vice president's not going to stand to it? That's

56:14

what we're asking you America. Will you

56:16

stand up? Will you keep your oath

56:18

of office even if the

56:20

president doesn't? So America I think you've

56:22

got a really clear choice on this

56:24

election of who's going to honor that

56:26

democracy and who's going to honor Donald

56:28

Trump. Stuff got real right

56:31

there up until then they were trying to

56:33

be more cordial. I heard you all the

56:35

analysis tonight you know it seemed more normal

56:37

right there that's when normal stops

56:39

right and you say where's the firewall because it's

56:41

not necessarily going to be the speaker of the

56:43

house and it's definitely not going to be this

56:45

guy if he's the VP. And let's explain the

56:47

firewall point and maybe Wall should have explained it

56:49

in the moment but he's saying listen we

56:52

all saw that Donald Trump lost the

56:54

election claimed that he didn't lose and

56:57

then unleashed hell in this country to

56:59

try to hold on to power even

57:01

though we lost. The firewall was Mike

57:03

Pence. Mike Pence not only

57:06

respecting the Constitution but being willing to stand

57:08

up to Donald Trump and not do what

57:10

Donald Trump was ordering him to do. He

57:12

was the firewall. JD Vance will not be

57:14

a firewall and that's why he got the

57:16

job. Nor will Mike Johnson. And he could

57:18

have said that. I mean JD Vance is

57:20

on television basically saying he would help him

57:23

with another fake electors plan. Yes that may

57:25

or may not be why he is the

57:27

running mate currently it probably is a big

57:29

part of it. The other piece

57:31

we haven't played this but I wrote

57:33

this down with like exclamation points where

57:35

JD Vance said he'll have my prayers

57:37

best wishes and my help. That's what

57:39

JD Vance said about Kamala Harris and

57:42

Tim Walz if they won. And

57:44

that was part of the Earth

57:46

too as you like to say

57:49

the alternative universe whatever you may

57:51

call it. You're like buddy your

57:54

campaign is currently planning to suppress

57:56

votes to challenge votes to use

57:58

lawsuits to make it to challenge

58:01

the outcome. I mean, that was,

58:04

I mean, a jarring moment. Tim Walz had

58:06

some good moments, but there were some missed

58:08

moments too. And I don't think we can

58:10

emphasize this enough. It's called a bloodless

58:13

coup for a reason. There's

58:15

also a bloody coup. They did try both. But let's

58:17

remember, we've reported on it, and Rachel, you've warned about

58:19

it. I think everyone at this table has reported on

58:21

it. The original move

58:24

before they resorted to storming the

58:26

Capitol was the bloodless coup of

58:28

trying to get the states or

58:31

the alternate electors to

58:33

override the congressional certification without storming

58:35

the Capitol. And as Vance put

58:37

it, throw it to the

58:40

Congress for a big old fight. That

58:42

fight involves overturning the will

58:44

of the voters. And so when he says that

58:46

publicly and he showed, again, I thought

58:49

there were some moments, I do think for the record,

58:53

J.D. Vance was able to pretend that he's more

58:56

rational or logical-seeming in

58:58

these 90 minutes than he is day to

59:00

day and whether that works for him politically

59:02

is a point. But there were those revelations.

59:05

And so when he's caught there, unable to

59:07

acknowledge the winner of the last election, who's

59:09

the current president, which is a giveaway that

59:11

you're still working within the

59:13

big lie and double down on what

59:15

he said, which is we want to

59:17

throw it to the Congress. Everything else

59:20

is B.S. That's where I think our

59:22

friend Nicole Walls was calling for the

59:24

F-bombs. And I'll give you one. It

59:26

was frivolous. It was a

59:28

frivolous claim as far as

59:30

I can go. A different F-bomb. On

59:32

MSNBC, it's as far as we're going

59:35

to go here, family television. But that

59:37

was important because, yeah, you want to

59:39

stand up and go, wait a minute.

59:41

And I thought, you know, basically,

59:44

Walls was able to do some of it. The moderators,

59:46

I thought, did a decent job, but they

59:48

didn't do a ton in that moment to be like, this

59:50

is nuts. The person standing up

59:52

here is promising another. And again, I

59:55

say bloodless. He did not. I'm not

59:57

saying he advocated a Proud Boys insurrection,

59:59

but he did advocate the end of American

1:00:01

democracy. But that's the whole enchilada, right? Discussing

1:00:04

health care, the economy, all that

1:00:06

stuff is nonsense. Are

1:00:08

you going to accept the outcome

1:00:10

of the election results? Are you

1:00:12

participating in politics, or is

1:00:14

this just before the war? Yes, yes. That's

1:00:16

the question here, right? Are you going to

1:00:19

seize power, or are you going

1:00:21

to accept that people vote on who's in

1:00:23

power? Because those are the only two choices.

1:00:26

And to not be able to get a clear

1:00:28

answer on that is, as you say, the whole

1:00:30

enchilada. On

1:00:32

the point, actually, this is not on

1:00:34

this point at all. But this is something that Joy and

1:00:36

I want to show you. Because

1:00:39

I know that you and I

1:00:41

are old enough and have similar

1:00:44

enough internet tastes that you remember

1:00:46

dramatic chipmunk. Do

1:00:48

you remember dramatic chipmunk? It turns out it was dramatic

1:00:51

prairie dog. Do we have dramatic chipmunk? No,

1:00:55

no, no, not the honey badger. Do we have it? I

1:00:58

thought it was a chipmunk, but it's a prairie dog. Intriguing.

1:01:01

Yeah, hold on. Where is it? Come

1:01:05

on. See, does it look like a... Yeah, I know

1:01:07

it. I think I know exactly what you're talking about.

1:01:09

Yes. OK. Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Remember

1:01:12

it. OK. So dramatic chipmunk

1:01:14

was a thing. And the

1:01:16

moment... I think, do we have this actual thought

1:01:18

of it, where the chipmunk kind of turns and

1:01:20

faces the camera and raises the eye like that?

1:01:22

Because there was a number of

1:01:24

things... There was a number of incidents

1:01:26

in the vice presidential debate tonight where

1:01:29

J.D. Vance was looking at Tim Walz,

1:01:31

looking at him from the side, and

1:01:33

then turned without moving his head and

1:01:35

raised the eyebrows of the camera like that,

1:01:37

basically to make eye contact with the audience at

1:01:39

home, like, do you believe this guy? Anyway,

1:01:43

I just wanted to say, Joy, I... You know what?

1:01:45

I made that face when J.D.

1:01:48

Vance said that Donald Trump

1:01:50

peacefully turned over

1:01:52

power... On January 20th. On

1:01:54

January 20th. Yeah. How about he talked

1:01:56

about all the bipartisan ways he went.

1:01:58

Saving a Obamacare. during those four

1:02:01

years. And to me, I struggle to find

1:02:03

this big group of undecided voters in America.

1:02:05

I think there's a lot of people who

1:02:07

aren't necessarily saying who they're going to vote

1:02:09

for and what JD Vance did. I can

1:02:11

tell you on my phone tonight, it was

1:02:13

filled with people who love to say, see,

1:02:15

he's totally normal, don't you think? He put

1:02:17

on the show that people who were already

1:02:20

voting for Trump needed and wanted to feel

1:02:22

okay about it. Let's go to Alex Wagner,

1:02:24

who is in the spin room at the

1:02:26

site of the debate with our friend Claire

1:02:28

McCaskill. I

1:02:30

just want you to know that Claire McCaskill risked

1:02:32

life and limb to get into this room, almost

1:02:35

got bounced from the debate hall.

1:02:37

I thought they were going to tase me trying

1:02:39

to get into the spin room. The

1:02:42

Secret Service was a little out of control

1:02:44

here tonight. Like most Americans, we blame Donald

1:02:46

Trump Jr. for the problems. Yes. But

1:02:49

I do want to call your, he's

1:02:51

sitting right next to us, so I won't go

1:02:53

on at length about that. But Secret Service protection,

1:02:55

much more hardcore at this debate than the last

1:02:57

one. Claire, there is a

1:02:59

new sort of CBS, I will call

1:03:02

it a snap hole after this debate,

1:03:04

and the people who are asked, who

1:03:06

won the VP debate? 42%

1:03:08

of them say JD Vance won it, 41%

1:03:10

say Governor Walz won it, 17% say it's a tie. Does

1:03:14

anything about that surprise you? No, I think

1:03:16

the debate, first of all, JD

1:03:19

Vance tried to do one thing and he

1:03:21

focused on it. He tried to be Tim

1:03:23

Walz. He tried to be

1:03:25

the nice guy. And he was very

1:03:27

smooth. And the

1:03:30

other thing about JD Vance is that he's

1:03:32

a better liar than Donald Trump. He

1:03:36

wraps it up in prettier ribbon with

1:03:38

a bigger bow and

1:03:40

does it with such a straight face

1:03:42

and does it so effortlessly. Trump,

1:03:45

lots of times when he lies, you kind

1:03:47

of can tell, no, this

1:03:49

guy's a really good liar. And he

1:03:52

obviously lied. I mean, I had that foul on my

1:03:54

chair when he said on the

1:03:56

ACA because I was there. I was in

1:03:58

the Senate chamber when- McCain

1:04:00

walked in and gave the thumbs down.

1:04:02

I know what Donald Trump tried to do to

1:04:05

the ACA. And the idea that

1:04:07

he would try to pretend that somehow he was

1:04:09

protecting it. The other thing that struck me about

1:04:11

the debate is I think most Americans, and I

1:04:13

know you guys have probably talked about this already,

1:04:16

but most Americans don't see the

1:04:18

vice president as the policymaker. And

1:04:21

I don't remember any time during the debate

1:04:23

that they talked about the Pence years when

1:04:26

Trump was president. The Pence administration. The

1:04:28

Pence administration. And the Pence did all

1:04:30

these things. And

1:04:33

so I don't think most Americans

1:04:35

really believe the vice president has

1:04:37

the power to pass

1:04:39

legislation and implement policy unless

1:04:42

she is working on behalf of

1:04:44

the president she's serving. So

1:04:47

I don't think that is, I think that's

1:04:49

one of the reasons probably the debate polling

1:04:51

is so close. And

1:04:54

I think the debate probably in the long

1:04:56

run, even though Trump, the answer was a

1:04:58

really good liar. And even though he tried

1:05:01

to be really nice, I think

1:05:03

it's probably a wash. I

1:05:05

talked to Jason Miller, the senior Trump campaign

1:05:07

advisor, after the debate. And I brought up

1:05:09

the January 6 exchange

1:05:11

at the end of the debate. And I said, you know, is

1:05:14

that a problem for your campaign? And he said,

1:05:16

if that's all Democrats have, then

1:05:18

I'm not worried. What do you

1:05:21

think? I think they should

1:05:23

be worried. I think it was so

1:05:25

stark. It was at the end of the debate. It was

1:05:27

a dramatic moment. It was unbelievable

1:05:29

that he would not say that Trump

1:05:31

lost the election. He would not say

1:05:33

that they would not try to do

1:05:35

the same play again. So I do

1:05:39

think that was the most damning moment, as

1:05:41

some of our colleagues said earlier. That's kind

1:05:43

of when it all fell apart, I think,

1:05:46

for Vance at the end. And you realize,

1:05:48

OK, maybe this all was just an act. And he

1:05:50

really is just a Donald Trump

1:05:52

wannabe. I am disturbed by the phenomenon that

1:05:54

you have called out, which is this attempt

1:05:57

to revise history in real time. It's something

1:05:59

our own. Steve Bannon at MSNBC

1:06:01

has written a book about, but the idea

1:06:03

that you can basically rewrite the facts minutes

1:06:06

after they unfolded, whether or not it's Donald

1:06:08

Trump saying he had nothing to do with

1:06:10

the killing of the Langford Bipartisan Immigration Bill,

1:06:12

whether it's J.D. Vance saying he never supported

1:06:14

a national abortion ban. And the question is,

1:06:16

is the sort of universe

1:06:19

of information so bivarcated into the

1:06:21

truth and the not-truth, Earth-1 and

1:06:23

Earth-2, that all of those

1:06:25

assertions on the Vance Trump ticket don't

1:06:28

actually matter, that the lies don't matter? Or do

1:06:30

you think the truth actually eventually breaks through? I

1:06:32

don't know, but I do know this. There

1:06:35

is something deeply ironic that they had

1:06:37

a debate question about

1:06:40

Tim Walz misspeaking about when he was in

1:06:42

China 35 years ago, but

1:06:45

Donald Trump said some outrageous lies

1:06:47

today and every day makes outrageous

1:06:49

lies. And there was not one

1:06:51

question about being a vice presidential

1:06:53

candidate to a man who says

1:06:56

daily, massive things. I mean,

1:06:58

just what he said about Kim and

1:07:01

President Biden in the hurricane

1:07:03

disaster just yesterday. The

1:07:06

idea that they're making a big deal out of a

1:07:09

misstatement of Walz when Donald

1:07:11

Trump is a walking line machine.

1:07:13

Literally every minute, every

1:07:15

hour on the hour. Unbelievable. Senator

1:07:18

Claire McCaskill, take her to the club because she's going

1:07:20

to get you in. Over to you, Rachel. What

1:07:24

would we have done had you actually got

1:07:26

tased though, Claire? Honestly, I mean,

1:07:28

we would have had it would have been a story. It

1:07:31

would have been a story. Alex,

1:07:33

would you please accompany me? What

1:07:37

got me mad was I found out they let

1:07:40

Hannity in and they were about to let the

1:07:42

dog puppet in and they hadn't

1:07:44

let me in. I'm going, come on,

1:07:46

guys. The dog puppet was advocating, the

1:07:48

Daily Show dog puppet was advocating for

1:07:50

the Senator to let out. Well,

1:07:53

thank you. The dog puppet actually said Claire

1:07:55

should go in before the dog puppet. I

1:07:57

said thank you for that. what

1:08:00

if there's one thing that can bring Americans together,

1:08:02

I mean I really feel like the dog puppet

1:08:04

can show us the way we're glad you're OK

1:08:06

say thank you to the dog for us. All

1:08:09

right we're going to take a very quick

1:08:11

break. Our MSNBC coverage of tonight's vice presidential

1:08:13

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